The biggest turnoff I had from X3 was that the game slowed to an absolute crawl when I got into combat. (That first tutorial mission), so I could never actually play it. I have it somewhere, and should try it again since I did upgrade my computer, but I dunno where the copy is.

Simulators NEVER repeat NEVER make tons of money, they're niche markets, especially because people interested in one type of simulator (eg Spaceship) often aren't interested in another (eg Helicopter). There are plenty of simulators out there, but they're not going to be AAA games with nice engines and shiny engines, they're going to be done by people that often have a different day job and are making a simulator because they enjoy the niche.

The fact that simulators don't make a lot of money is why they aren't made by large game companies any longer.

I might wonder about that though, with regards to things like Wing Commander. Yes, it was a simulator, but it was an iconic series. As it trailed off in the latter years, it was mostly due to game quality as much as anything. The first through third games were masterful and widely acclaimed by people, even to this day. Same with Privateer. Privateer 2 and the later WC games weren't nearly as well liked. That, and the way Ultima was being handled, kinda threw Origin into the gutter.

I did rather enjoy Privateer 2 though, just was surprised they put the game outside of the WC universe while retaining the name. I'd kill for a top-quality, professional game like that which has the amusing storylines and ease of play with the complexity still present. The X series just didn't cut it for me. I found out today that my next paycheck is going to be much larger than normal, so maybe I'll splurge on something. Might try X3:TC, but who knows.

Infinity, currently WIP, I would estimate a release date sometime in 2010, so dont get your hopes up for it anytime soon...

It looks like it is shaping up to be an excellent game, the engine is almost done by the looks of it (the engine is being done by a single guy!) and as of last I've seen, he has started working on modeling the Earth. While there will be some custom built solar systems (like earth's system) most will be procedurally generated. Not entirely sure of the exact figure, but I've heard theres gonna be around 100 million star systems, and will be very similar to our galaxy in composition... The game will take place entirely in our galaxy by the way. Newtonian physics, player built outposts, yada yada yada... MMO by the way. No choke points, which means no Eve style gate camping. Massive? of course, no single person could hope to see 1% of the universe, which is a good thing as far as I am concerned... space is big. Scale in Infinity will be correct (planets are thousands of kilometers across). Oh yes, and seamless player controlled landing on those procedurally generated planets.

Anyway, enough of my rambling, on to the links!

http://www.infinity-universe.com/
And heres a link to an old video demonstrating going down to a planet. If I remember correctly it is over a year old, their site was redone though so it says August 12 for anything from earlier than the new site. Since then it has only gotten better. http://www.infinity-universe.com/Infinity/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=44&Itemid=93

As far as the genre is concerned... It WILL pick up soon. Space flight is finally coming closer to a reality in the ways it is depicted in these games. The cost of spaceflight is coming down, and in a few years commercial spaceflight will be developed enough for games based on real technologies to come about... Especially after the Google Lunar X Prize is won, I would predict interest in space will spur the development of new games about it. Just hold out a little while longer, and space titles will start pouring in.

Too bad no one would update Rules of Engagment. I had that on my Amiga and was very cool.

Sometimes they are, though.  Ubisoft seems to be contentedly churning out its wonderful Silent Hunter sims (if only those guys would take a crack at a space sim!).  I think all it takes is someone to have an interest in a particular genre at a major studio. 

I think the biggest anchor around the space sim genre is that we haven't seen a really big hit in quite awhile, causing the pubs to forget all about it.  Also, the gaming industry has been moving in a "causal" direction for a number of years now; sims seem just too "hardcore" to be a mainstream hit (not my logic, but I suspect the logic of the publishers).  

I am hopeful all of this will change.  I think EVE has proven that a space game centered around vessel command, with more than a little complexity, can be a lucrative hit (I am often amused when I read articles by industry insiders who are still scratching their head over why EVE has proven so popular in such a "casual gaming" environment).  I mean, all of a sudden we have a bunch of similar MMOs appearing on the horizon, from Jumpgate to Infinity.  Sins has also helped by snagging all those industry awards.  I think we might see a renaissance in space sims in the near future.

Unfortunately, though, I think the renaissaince is going to continue to be centered around the fighter pilot mode of spaceship command, where even though you might be commanding a huge ship, you're still doing all the work of flying and firing weapons.  Wing Commander left just too big an impression on the industry.    Like I said initially, I want to be able to stand on a bridge and see my crew working their stations.  I want to give the orders and manage the crew.  Again, basically, Silent Hunter in space.  Alas, I think that type of game is going to be a long time coming as I know of no game that is embracing such an idea since Bridge Commander and that Klingon Academy from many years ago. 

Crusader Scott: I too was looking for what you are looking for. I can recommend Klingon Academy if you can get it. I managed to get a full version sent to me by a mate on a forum like this.

Here are some newer games that do "space combat simulation"

Starshatter: the gathering storm

This game is amazing and lets you command squadrons of capital ships or fly fighters all in a dynamic campaign or even coop missions if you wish. I highly recommend it. The latest iteration only came out a year or two ago. The Battlestar Galactica mod is simply amazing if u like commanding battlestars and flying viper fighters.

You get to choose what your starships target, what alert status your fighters go to, how they patrol, how damage control is taken care of, what weapons to use etc

http://www.starshatter.com/screenshots.htm

Nexus: The Jupiter Incident:

Another classic that still looks awesome graphically. It again allows you to command cap ships, target enemy subsystems/damage control etc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nexus_the_jupiter_incident

EVE: This game is junk. Its just an excuse for stats chasing and gear collecting in space. Exactly the same as WOW.

I thought this game looked good but played like Freelancer. Not a starship sim but a trading "compulsive collecting/level up game

Angels Fall First: The Second Antarean War

MMORTS BETA2 jan 11 Dunno how this will turn out but looks interesting.

http://www.aff2aw.com/forum/

Love to know what u think of my suggestions

Also if you want a real starship simulator "like a NASA grade one" try orbitor. My friends have taken this real physics sim into geosynchronis orbit and then slingshoted to land on Venus and stuff like that.

http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/

P.S. A real life ship fleet simulator I am playing at the moment (ww1 naval) is called Jutland.

http://www.stormeaglestudios.com/public/html/se_jutland_v2.html

BONUS: Babylon 5 I've found her - real newtonian physics in a space fighter campaign

http://ifh.babylonfive.ru/

Thanks for the list!  I'll check them out!

I never tried it, but there is another game called Dark Horizon, but I think that is more of a fighter type game...again. 

I forgot about starship Shatter.  I have it on my comp but never have the time to boot it up.  I know it is not an easy sim to learn.  I did not know the MMO Infinity game is going to be taking off anytime soon.  Interesting to see whether it will drag the Eve player away.  There were a lot of discussion awhile ago whether to make the X-series a MMO, the conclusion on their english forum was a majority "no" because of what others have seen from Eve Online.  But I agree that probably Ubisoft should do a starship sim given the fact that they manage to do Silent hunter 3 and 4 so well.

What I really want is a game similar to Klingon Academy thats more like starshatter with a nice large Star Destroyer bridge to stroll around. This would give the feeling of a large ship in combat. Starshatter can do this as it can give cap ships cockpits if you wish. But have not seen them yet. Only used the basic capital ship hud.

Be aware also that the starshatter demo is very old iirc. The updated Gathering Storm has much improved graphics.

A pic of Starshatter: the gathering storm for ya: Starshatter has a dynamic campaign that enables you to do amazing things with your fleet. Your actions affect the outcome of the war and the game knows when you lose cap ships that they affect the war. When in game you can jump ships in and out of solar systems and to planets whenever you like. You can send probes to look for the enemy, protect convoys, starbases etc etc. Each time you finish a mission the game generates new missions based on how the war is going and what sectors are affected. I was impressed that the game did not limit me if I wanted to run, I fired up the hyperdrives and got the hell out of dodge. I could jump back in whenever I wanted.

The only thing with this game is that time compression is not fast enough, you have to know your stuff and be alert and aware of the situation surrounding you to find the enemy fast in some missions. In other word its an excellent game that does not give much to noobs so to speak.

A pic of NExus the jupiter incident for ya: the problem with Nexus is that the missions are scripted for the most part and multiplayer is really just deathmatch. Klingon Academy is also canned missions so these two games are similar, except KA puts you in the cockpit of a starship, nexus merely lets you manage your starships in third person.

Klingon Academy may be old but it is still very fun. A bit like playing the original XWing missions with a large starship

Thought I'd throw in a shot of the "ship" rather than starship fleet simulator I am playing called Jutland. This is a gem, its like total war for ww1 ships. Real Time campaign map zooms into battles and save at any time. Brilliant.

Freelancer was fun, and the nomad ships and system were amazing. My reaction coming upon the dyson sphere was "WTF?! A wall in space?" Great game, but the downsides were that you couldn't get capital ships (without mods), nor use a joystick.

Following this discussion, i re-installed X3. Getting into the ship gave that same overpowering feeling as the first time, it's as if you were just learning to read, and the teacher gives the "Lord of the Rings" - trilogy for reading practise. X3 UI is a bit user-abusive at first, but when you learn to use it , it has some very powerful tools. For example when i was playing previously i controlled my factories and trade ships on the other side of the universe from my fighters cockpit, including buying new ships and giving them orders.

And thanks for listing all those games everyone, i'll take a look unless X3 sucks me back in, i  really want that Python Darkstar one, that someone mentioned,  was recently added to Good Old Games, they also have the Freespace games.

Ya know, it seems all these niche sims each have about 70-80% of the fomula correct, but miss out on tying the package up into a nice whole.  I guess that's where a professional publisher comes in.  Those guys often have a good critical eye for tightening up a game and reminding devs what they like is not necessarily what makes a game good. 

It's also funny and interesting that most of the reviews for these games begin with:  "Judging from the letters we receive (and from the discussions we have with each other at the office), there's a sizable contingent of gamers out there who are really hungering for classic space combat games. Games like Wing Commander, TIE Fighter, Freespace, Independence War, and others still have thriving communities despite their age."    You listening, IronClad?!?

Still, I wish they would stop with the Wing Commander, et al. references.  Its time to innovate! 

Lastly, considering how the Star Trek franchise is still so strong, I'm surprised we haven't seen a new Bridge Command/Academy yet.  There is a new ST MMO coming out, but alas - yet again - it seems to use an EVE third-person approach to starship command.  Sigh.    Let's try to be original here!  If I was making a space MMO, I would instantly realize that EVE has their approach sewed-up and I would try to do something different.  Giving gamers a "Wrath of Khan" approach to starship battles would be very different.  No "pew-pew"ing, but a focus on careful maneuvering punctuated with moments of terror. 

Ya know, in the end, its going to take a successful movie to really light a fire under the industry.  Something to get away from the Star Wars approach to space combat.  Perhaps the forthcoming Honor Harrington film will be the catalyst we need?  I'm not a big fan of that series, but it has the right amount of realism when it comes to commanding a starship of various sizes.

I'm really surprised someone beat me to Starshatter - it has barely any recognition at all. And then throwing down I've Found Her in the same post - you're taking all my suggestions!

So, yeah, there's several space sim games, with different takes on the whole thing, and it depends what angle you want to play:

If you want to be in a Fighter (and you want an actual sim):

-) I've Found Her (Babylon 5 Universe, full newtonian)

-) Starshatter: The Gathering Storm (Original IP, Dynamic Campaign, arcade/semi-newtonian/full newtonian options)

-) X-Wing Alliance (Star Wars universe, arcade flight model, sim level control options)

-) X series, X3:Terran Conflict the latest (Original IP, semi-newtonian)

Of those, the X series has the biggest fleet battles, but also has as small fights as 1v1. Starshatter is right behind that in scope, with X-Wing in the middle. I've found Her is exclusively fighter vs fighter battles, with about a dozen ships in a big fight.

Capital Ship wise, the market is sadly undersaturated:

-) Starfleet Command Series, SFC 2 being the best, but not the prettiest (Star Trek universe, real-time-turn-based board game adaptation, 2D flight plane, very complex, Isometric View)

-) Starfleet Academy series, Klingon Academy being the latest (Star Trek universe, first person, arcade flight model, rather complex)

-) X series, see above

-) Starshatter, see above

On X, X2 has the best capital ship feeling because you actually were sitting in the captains chair on a fully modelled 3D bridge. Think new Battlestar Galactica CnC sized. Sadly, the rest of the game is inferior to the latter entries in the series.

On SFC2, SFC 1 and 2 are probably the most realistic Star Trek every written - it contains seeking missile weaponry, point defense grids, mines, fighter craft and the everyday beurocracy of a Navy (refits, shipyard capacity issues, wrecking your empires budget by trying to build the biggest Dreadnaught, etc.). Which is probably the reason it is not considered canon.

I'm not going to list RTS/RTT games since, those are a more established genre, and you get a lot of space based ones.

PS.: Don't judge the X-series story by what you get presented in the games - it's an incredibly butchered version of the novelized story (which was actually written first by one of the games developers). Part of the butchering was done to make it playable to more than utter hardcore (lightspeed lag in comms and visuals, time dilation do not a fun game make), part of the butchering was done because of budget problems, and the most horrendous voice actors on the planet chosen by the publisher.

I just want BIGGER capital ships. Ships that don't have maybe ten guns on the port side, but ten thousand. Ships with shields so strong and armor so thick even nukes don't do the trick.I want to see people flying out of the ships when they're damaged! I want to choose exactly where my marines land, and it should affect what they see when they fight! And I am not talking about pre-rendered video clips and numbers showing you the result of a capture attempt, I am talking about ships with real 3d interior that you can fight in. I am talking about ships that, should you ever manage to destroy one, you LEAVE THE DAMN SOLARSYSTEM CAUSE ITS NOT GOING TO BE THERE MUCH LONGER.

Even with Star Trek flight academy, the size of your ships completely lack feeling. I remember that movie where the Enterprise crashes into another ship and is literally destroyed, but not in some pansy explosion, it's metal grinding against each other, ripping apart floor after floor and you can see each deck on its own leaking. Now THAT is a capital ship fight. The death stars! Those were capital ships!

Games just don't have the scale. They're stuck with this "oh yeah, but how could maybe 5 worlds ever produce such ships?". Fuck it. Make it a million worlds instead. That's what I loved about the 40k universe. It was huge.

Yes W40k is huge. Stupidly huge - to an (intentionally) comical degree. Noone in their right mind would build Death Star sized ships (which housed more than a million civilians just to provide the infrastructure) - not to mention bigger ones.

They wouldn't be fun in games either - once you get to gun #100 you're already past caring about it. So I hit with 900 instead of 1000 super-mega-death-lasers? Who cares?

Marine #9640 managed to beat two opponents at the same time? Good for him, too bad he's dead and buried because there's a thousand more people involved in that boarding action. The unique moments, the nailbiters, don't exist anymore on that scale.